PW: And your red note would be the fourth degree because that would anticipate where you're going to one. And this goes on and on and on. And meanwhile, I would be going out teaching at all sorts of universities all over the country playing you know with the jazz band because of my records with Woody [Herman]. And then I would do classes in these various places during the day. And then, in the summer, all of us -- Herb [Pomeroy], John LaPorta, etc. etc. -- went out and did what are now the Aebersold Clinics. [Jamey] Aebersold was a student in those days. FB: Right. Now he's got his own big thing. PW: Absolutely. It's an extension as to what we were doing in the ‘60's. FB: Amazing. PW: And we would go out and we would teach almost a semester’s worth of material in five days. In these arranging classes. And, you’ve got to remember, in 1965, “jazz” was still somewhat of a dirty word. FB: In academic circles, certainly. PW: Yeah, it was feared by a lot of teachers who could see the writing on the wall. FB: Oh, the legit people must have been quaking in their boots. PW: They were. FB: It's like, you know, Louis Armstrong would take a solo and the Roger Voisins of the world would say, “Well, we can't play that.” PW: Except Roger. FB: He could. PW: Roger actually went to, was in the Army with, Bobby Hackett. And yeah, they were very close friends. And Roger used to tell the story on himself that Bobby had to miss a gig.