DF: Believe it or not I became kind of a jazz snob. You know, I started taking these lessons and it was much harder to play than the rock stuff. So I became kind of a jazz snob. Unlike other people I kind of outgrew that by the time I was fifteen. And I started listening to fusion, Mah Vishnor Orchestra, and started listening to Van Halen, and then punk, and then free jazz. My parents had a lot of jazz records, and eventually I attacked everyone of them. And there was one, I had only been playing for a year, and then I pull out this Coltrane , and it was like oh here's another John Coltrane record, and it was all the way in the back. I wonder why this is here, let me check this out. It was Ohm. Oh man. I put that on, I coudln't even take thirty seconds of it. I was like what's going on? Once a year I pulled that out. And my last year in Germany, when I was nineteen, I put it on again and I got it. I thought okay. It took a while, but... FB: Lots of uh, bent notes and eastern modes and...? DF: Yeah, Coltrane, he studied alot of different music, but I think he really used more the concepts, as in, once you got through the Giant Steps phase, modal improve, improvising over one chord, being influenced by Indian music, but not really using the rhythmic organization or the bent notes. I don't really hear specific world music things. I would hear more world music concepts. FB: Ok, so he never went the Charlie Morganera, Naga Swearam root? DF: Yeah, he didn't. He just used it to organize his ideas. FB: And was he playing in the cracks? Was he playing microtonally at that point? DF: You know I've studied alot of microtonal music and I love John Coltrane, if he did I don't think it's on purpose. It's not like a, let's say, a Husseni Mckob, which is an Arabic Mckob. The pitch set would be similar to a dorian mode, where the second and the sixth step are a quarter flat. Depending on when they occur, if it's ascending or decending, but it's always those degrees and only those degrees, specifically. As soon as you, as soon as it's played, you hear it right away. It's just like major or minor. It's just like the third, major or minor here. It really sticks out. And I don't hear that in his playing. There may have been some intuitive, but I don't hear a purpose, a purposely....Like for example I really like the Husseni mode with a quarter sharp eleven added onto it. And I'm specifically playing those notes, and I'm actually also stacking these notes as a chord scale. You don't hear that. It's much more of an intuitive context. FB: Certainly not Arnet Coleman playing an alto sax and playing you know, "Lonely Woman" a litte bit flat either. That's that intentional. DF: Yeah I mean, the microtonal, the microtonal jazz inovators, I mean, the microtonal jazz inovator is Joe Manery. FB: Ok, and you worked with him at the conservatory? DF: I had his last semester, his last microtonal class. FB: And Matt carries it out on the fiddle does he not? DF: Matt, Matt does it. Dr. Julia Ward is now teaching that class, Joe retired. But he is really the first. There's also Sunrah, who would, he read about quarter tones. He was talking about it in the late forties. Some pieces like "Sun Song", you can, I think "A Call For All The Demons," I'm not sure. But you can hear that specific, specific chords or notes are intentionally out of tune. Because it's always those notes that recur. You know if somebody can't play, and plays out of tune, it's not that specific. But he would try to get his players to try and think outside of the box and make them play a piece they knew but pull their mouth piece out. So you can hear a specific texture in some of these tunes. So .. FB: Yeah I love Sunrah. I'll have to go back and listen a little more carefully. DF: I'll tell you which, I wrote a paper on it, and I'll tell you which pieces specifically. FB: Oh good! Great! I'll have to check it out. I know that those influences did run throug the conservator in some of those years you were there. Your neighborhood saxophone quartet with Alan Chase and those guys, they did a whole album of Sunrah stuff. And they played two of those tunes you just mentioned: "A Call for All Demons" and a couple of others. They must have been paying attention to that. And um, maybe I wasn't. DF: Mmhmm. I don't know, I wrote that paper and Alan said he hadn't considered those options before. You know, I recently got my masters specifically to study microtonality, and I took the Sunrah class with Alan Sheas, which is unbelieveable. What a great teacher and player. And I read the autobiography, and I underlined the places where he talks about microtonality and I researched the tunes where it's either mentioned or where is occurs. And I did some transcritions, and some are beautiful, they are really unique. I was suprised. Sunrah is a really underated innovator. The first to use electric keyboards. One of the first to use synthesizers. Beat Miles and Coltrane by at least maybe a year to record something that was modal. Was doing free stuff before many other people. And had these shows before people where doing happenings. FB: Or live shows. And all that regalia and parades and eastern stuff. DF: Yeah, he did that before anyone freaked out and did that in the sixties. FB: Yeah you listen to any one album and you get a panaply of alot of those effects in the space of four or five tracks and you go, "What is this? Where is his head?" Space is the place. DF: It's in space.